Joshua Chin 4:44
So, do you have them involved in your business at all?
Greg Howlett 4:46
Oh, yeah, absolutely. My daughter, for example, is the logistics manager here and this warehouse in Atlanta. She manages it all. Hey, she’s 19 doesn’t come up. price that way she thinks she’s 45. But she, she’s 19 and manages this warehouse and, and all the the inventory, the hiring and firing and so on. And I try to get my children acting that way or operating that way. Because there’s really no reason first of all, why they can’t do it. And secondly, it’s just a great training ground. She’s She’s also at Purdue University studying business. But I like to think this is, you know, somewhat better than that business degree in terms of preparing her for real life,
Joshua Chin 5:33
then this is kind of like a battleground, right? It’s like a real actual practice grown. Where that this is reality. And what you learn in school is kind of the theory and you get to apply that theory to something that’s real. But Greg, give us a sense of how, what the business is like, how big is it? How it what’s, how’s it structured? Do you have like, people around the country? Or are you guys still in Atlanta?
Greg Howlett 5:57
Well, we’re about to open a is matter of fact, within a couple months, we’re opening our a warehouse in the West. But yeah, right now, our warehouse is here. Our people are here, except we, the customer service that we provide is all remote. There’s that was a COVID thing, you know, but it just makes sense. There’s really yeah, if you sit down and think about, there’s really not a good reason to have customer service people in a building anymore. Well, I shouldn’t say there’s no good reason. But the it just makes sense, especially in a business like ours. So we’re actually scaling customer service around the world, because we’re trying to get bilingual and so on. And so we’re actually actively recruiting outside the country and have people working outside the country. But the warehouse, people can’t pack orders from Ecuador. At least we haven’t figured out how to make that work yet. So the warehouse, people are here. So that’s pretty much what it looks like. And oh, you asked about size this year, we’re going to do about $6 million.
Joshua Chin 7:02
Incredible, incredible. And so, I guys, if you haven’t checked out the episode that Greg did with eCommerceFuel with Andrew, definitely check that out. Um, Greg, you’ve been in business for a long time. And I personally find it very difficult to get unplugged in many ways, including, you know, when you when you take a vacation, you feel a sense of just guilt of not being able to do things and you like mentally you kind of go to a place where you’re thinking about work, you’re kind of checking your phone checking slack, it’s so easy to get back into the work mode again, just because of how connected we are today. How do you how do you kind of keep those things a priority state? Or is does that? Does that even matter?
Greg Howlett 7:52
Well, you know, that it’s interesting, you bring up that episode with with Andrew, because in that episode, I talked about a five week vacation we took in the summer. So we did a five week vacation, and I didn’t unplug very well, during that. I think it was just a little too much to ask to do December and June, you know. But yeah, I mean, and you could listen to that episode. But really what it comes down for to me is way back in the beginning, this is 1999. I read the E-Myth. Have you read the E-Myth? The Michael H. Yeah. Is it Kurt, Michael Gerber. Michael Gerber. Yeah,
Joshua Chin 8:35
that’s what that book
Greg Howlett 8:37
really, really changed the way I thought, you know, I was too dumb to not believe, you know, it’s like, so many of us get out in ecommerce or in any business, and we get pretty much sucked in a little too much right away. And I was so young, I didn’t realize that was how it was supposed to happen. And I actually believe Michael Gerber. And I actually wrote down my list of, you know, the did the assignments in the book, and really started focusing on process. And I guess I should go back a little bit further and say that when I came out of college, I was a software engineer. So I knew process. I know logistics, knew logistics to an extent. And I was able to say, Okay, well, we have something that needs to be done. Let’s write a solution. If we can’t buy a solution, which back in 1999, you really couldn’t. The internet was very, you know, new. It’s not like you have all these SaaS applications that we have today. But we would write things and and write code. And so that helped us right from the very beginning, start building a foundation that did not need me. And of course, that’s the key, right? I mean, if you’re going to have a business and you want to have a life, and you want to have a family and all these kinds of things, you have to create a business that doesn’t need you. By the way, that’s a big hit on the ego. Right, we always want to have our phones ringing all the time. But the reality is, if that’s the kind of life you want, you’re not going to have a freedom. And so I’ve always focused on creating a business that does not need me. And I think that’s a big, big key to being able to get unplug. But because the reality is my phone doesn’t ring when I’m gone, or very, very rarely. And so I was able to go in this summer and go five weeks, and I didn’t get bothered, except once or twice. And so I think that’s really the key.
Joshua Chin 10:38
So on one on one hand, that’s processes and systems that are put in place to make sure that things run, despite, you know, being in the business, but what about, what about decisions, I often find that to be a sticking point, and kind of being the key executive in a company. A lot of really crucial decisions and crucial dilemmas end up in on your desk. How do you avoid having to deal with that when you step away?
Greg Howlett 11:13
Your time talking about decisions, I think a lot of it comes down to you have to be realistic, if you’re stepping away, you have to say, Okay, if we’re going to be stepping away, we’re sort of putting a lot of those things on pause for a month. And the reality is, those decisions usually don’t have to be made as quickly as you think they have to be made, right? Obviously, there’s emergency stuff that may come along, and so on. But in general, strategic decision making, sort of has to take a backseat. And there’s something that I say, and I really believe it, I really believe that just like I need a break from my business, my business needs a break from me. Because a business that is able to breathe a little bit is able to grow. Strangely, it sometimes goes faster, because things aren’t changing as much, you have time for things to settle in. And, and, you know, we’re entrepreneurs, I think fast, we work fast, we implement stuff. But sometimes if you’re working too fast, you’re just sort of running in circles, you’re not really sure what’s working yet you’re not giving things a chance, and so on. So I think that’s a big part of it. I think in general, in a lot of businesses, we could do with some more stepping back, and not making bad strategic decisions for a while. Then,,
Joshua Chin 12:37
Thanks Greg, let’s talk a little bit more about concentrated. You don’t take on any clients that come knocking on your door. There is a process that in selecting the right clients to work with, what does that look like? And what’s an ideal client slash partner?
Greg Howlett 12:54
Yes, you’re right, we were very, very selective. We don’t need a lot of clients. And really what we want is partners, because we have our strengths. But we also have our weaknesses, our strengths, our process, logistics. And we have a lot of, obviously, after 20 years of doing this, I have a lot of experience across across the gamut. But really, when it comes down to it, we want a brand that had this a solid brand that knows what they’re doing. They have great reputation in the industry, but they just don’t know how to do what we can provide. Right. So we’re looking for a partnership, our partnership is is all this the logistical stuff from customer service, fulfillment, and all these other things. But we will need to work with a brand that is a brand, it’s got to be a legitimate brand in the industry, a brand that doesn’t know how to capitalize on what they have. And in other words, when it comes down to it, we tend to leave marketing, the brand marketing brand awareness to our partner, we’ve done it, but it’s not really our sweet spot. Our sweet spot is everything that happens after that. And so those are the kinds of partnerships that we look for something that really is a possible Win win that both sides are going to benefit from. We can apply our processes all day long. But if the product can’t generate sales, if the if the brand is not strong enough, or the product is not strong enough to stand in the industry, then our logistics isn’t going to get us very far. Right. We’re just gonna be standing around. So that’s the kind of thing we’re looking for really.
Joshua Chin 14:41
And Greg is from kind of an outside looking in, you have been on top of the changes and the things that are happening in ecommerce for over 20 years now. And it’s at some point that must get tiring, like I should then everything changes, Nothing stays the same. What’s your philosophy behind that? And I think it lends to the spirit of kind of feeds into the spirit of commerce and trade as well and how you stay agile and on top of the game for your, for your clients and for the brands you work with. But what do you what were your thoughts on that?
Greg Howlett 15:21
Well, the things obviously do change a lot. But they also stay the same a lot. When I think of the big picture stuff. It’s remarkable how little has changed it to like year after year ticks by and you think I was doing this four or five years ago, and the bat is pretty much the same thing. At least it’s the big picture thinking is about the same thing. Obviously, we could take something like SEO, for example. Yes, he was a great example. Because when I started in 1999, if you wanted the top ranking on Yahoo, for a term, you paid $199, one time, you got to direct your listing, you filled it up with keywords, and you’re on top of Yahoo. And that’s literally how easy it was and, and then eventually PPC, what we call PPC that paid advertising came along. And in those days, and this is, you know, 2001 2002 you basically sat on your computer all day long, and try and just have a little bidding wars with another person. So you say, Okay, I’m bidding $1. And then the person would be watching you. And they’d say, $1.10 for a click and, and you and then eventually, somebody would get this point where they say, Okay, it’s too high, and they go back to 70 cents. And I know that sounds crazy. But that is literally how it was, for a long time until Google started doing automated bidding. And so go to eventually, unless I’m mistaken, became a think Google bot go to and that that was the go to, have you ever heard of go to kind of
Joshua Chin 16:55
not? Yeah, go to? Oh, yeah,
Greg Howlett 16:58
these were the early days of PPC, the very early days, and there was not automated. And so right, that was early search advertising. And, of course, SEO got smarter and smarter, or Google got smarter and smarter with SEO over time. There was a time for example, where all you had to do get to get rankings was to have the most inbound links. And so if you wanted the most inbound links, and your competitor had 4000, you go get 5000, usually by buying them. And so then Google figured out, okay, you have link farms and links have different value associated with them. And so we’ve gone through this evolution. And now of course, SEO is largely driven by the customer experience on your website. And so all the strategies have sort of changed. But the overall strategy hasn’t changed, which is we need to be good at what we do. So Google wants to rank us well, and Google or any other search engine, and I’ve been saying for 20 years, if we want the top ranking on Google, for example, for a keyword, forget about gaming the system, just be the best company be the company that they want to rank in that spot. And that is pretty much where the industry is gone. It’s taken a while to get there. But SEO is a great example of how, you know, there’s been a lot of change, but a lot has stayed the same. And, you know, I think if there’s one thing that has changed, that really makes it tough for new people come into the industry, it’s, you know, it’s ultra more competitive now. And the competition you’re going up against generally is in well, at least in some cases, well capitalized, they’re gonna have tools that newcomers may not be able to afford right out the gate, and so on. So I think the barrier to entry is higher. But fortunately, I was already in. So that’s the good news for me. But yeah, it’s, it’s the same and it’s different. And it does require you to be very flexible, for sure.
Joshua Chin 18:55
Remember that I think agility is key in all things that we do in the industry that we are in. What are some common mistakes that you see from from your, from the brands that you partner with? Especially I know, this is a big part of what I do so diversifying across different channels, plus Amazon, eBay, and ecommerce, your own website. What are some common issues or mistakes?
Greg Howlett 19:26
Yeah, okay. So their role, you mentioned diversification, I really do feel sorry for anybody that has all their eggs in the, in the Amazon basket, especially now. When Amazon for all we know it’s not run by people anymore. It’s, you know, AI is making those decisions and it’s, it’s just tough. I mean, it’s tough to see guys, that may be like one or two man shops that are doing I don’t know they’re they’re making a decent living today on Amazon and they’ll have an email under basket tomorrow in their inbox tomorrow that says You know, you’re suspended for whatever. And it wasn’t even a person that suspended you it was a robot. So these are the kinds of things that are happening. The big other thing that we see all the time is not having a handle on advertising. And this is something that’s been constant for 20 years as well. And, um, you see people that are over bidding, for example, they’re not watching numbers they’re spending in Google, which is sort of our, our world. And you know, the row as is not there. And, you know, I always sit back and say, well, they’ll be out of business and out of the way, but the truth of the matter is, there’s always somebody else to jump in and take a spot. There’s never an end to it. But people have to, they have to anybody that’s gonna try to spend money for advertising. They have to be on top of it. It is absolutely a numbers game now. And it’s there’s never been more of a case where all these numbers matter that they’re in during Google Analytics. And in Google, AdWords, the stats are out there. But you have to you have to stay on top of it. Right.
Joshua Chin 21:14
Greg, outside of ecommerce, you you have a, you have a different career, you were a musician for quite a bit of time. Now. What just kind of bridging the two, the two worlds? What were some of the best advice and or worst advice you’ve gotten from outside of ecommerce that you’ve applied to ecommerce? Of course, yeah.
Greg Howlett 21:45
That’s a good? That’s a good question. I’ve never gotten that question before. But there actually is a lot of synergy between those two careers. So for Witcher, for people that don’t know, I was a concert pianist and recording artist, I have 10 albums recorded. I, I worked in that world for about a dozen years. And I’m gonna give you like a 22nd little summary. When I started, I made a lot of money in ecommerce, and then I took about eight years to give it all back and get right to the edge of bankruptcy through stupidity and bad decision making. And then we worked away on that whole sold company and things have been really, really good sense. But at the same time, I was doing all this craziness. I am a concert pianist, I’m recording, I’m traveling, I’m touring and all that stuff. And, and it’s strange. But i ecommerce helped me in music, because all the stuff that we were doing in E commerce was coming in the music industry as well. And so yeah, this all this stuff is happening. Um, on the flip side, and by the way, that really, really helped me because I’m a, you know, I’m a decent musician, but I’m not a world class musician. I’m just, uh, you know, I’m not as I’m not as good as my numbers may make it seem. And a lot of that came from what I learned in the ecommerce world. On the flip side, music and and marketing myself on music really helped ecommerce, for example, I learned early in the social media things that that needed to be done. In music, though, you know, musics really, really important or socialist is really, really important in music long before it became a thing brand. In, in some of the other stuff we do. Um, another thing that we really helped from music is I learned to be generous in music. And it’s easy to be generous in music, because music doesn’t cost anything to distribute, right? You know, files and so on. But we learned a lot of principles on that side, that transition over to music thing, or transition over ecommerce as well. So there was a lot of synergy that went on between those two careers for a long, long time. But a lot of it did have to do with marketing. So the marketing that I was what I was learning music I can apply and vice versa.
Joshua Chin 24:21
thing on hindsight, is there anything that you do differently in your, in your career? If I mean, you have two parallel careers happens same time. But for ecommerce specifically, is there anything that you do differently, then?
Greg Howlett 24:38
Yeah, of course, I and I don’t know how many people make this mistake. I told you I ran a company into the ground. Again, we went we started we were doing well. And then, you know, six, seven years. I don’t know. Later, it’s it was right in the middle of our big recession here in the US. I woke up one Well, I didn’t wake up, I was in a hotel and looked at my bank account, realize, okay, I’m tapped out all our debt, our debt loans, credit lines, my savings are tapped. We’re right at the verge of bankruptcy. And how did I get to that point? Well, I got to that point, because very simply, I was chasing excitement. instead of chasing profits. And a lot of cases, I was saying, Okay, I want to do something that’s fun. So I’m gonna go into cost, Oh, it’ll cost a couple $100,000. But let’s do it. I was gonna, we had a product that we were selling well, online, everything’s going great. But I said, Okay, let’s go do it on an infomercial. And so we blew the money on infomercial. And then we had a lawsuit to come out, it came out of that. And before long, we’re talking about real, real money. And so that’s just one example. Of all these times where I was chasing excitement instead of profits. And somebody told me once is exactly the case, they said, making money is boring. It really, really is. Making money is a boring endeavor, when it’s happening, it doesn’t feel like you’re doing hardly anything. And a lot of times, we have sort of have to make a choice between excitement or profit, I chose excitement, an awful lot. And that manifests itself. In a lot of cases, by always, instead of just focusing staying in your lane and doing what you’re good at, you’re always trying to start something new. And I’m not saying we shouldn’t start stuff that’s new, we should, you know, sometimes you do up or down the food chain in terms of, you know, if you’re in marketing, maybe you want to do by the manufacturing company, at some point, I get that. But you have to be very strategic and slow. Going back to that thing I said earlier about giving your business a little break from yourself. If you’re just always just trying to find in my case, I’m always looking for the home run. And during those days, and nothing was working. And I would try one idea after another after another, nothing works. The reality is, almost all of us in this business would be better if we just focused on what we’re good at, stay in our lane. If you’re going to do a little bit of exciting things, pick up skydiving on the weekend, you know, do something else. But you know, don’t necessarily play that game with your business. Because in the long run, it’s probably not going to work out. And that is easily the place where I lost goodness 10s of millions of dollars, probably. I can look at decisions and see those decisions cost me enormously and going back of course, I would do it differently. But on the flip side, can’t beat ourself up too much.
Joshua Chin 27:45
Nervous and that’s it’s that extra inch. I gave you the the ability to tell the story. Yeah, I suppose. And that’s, that’s a good reminder. If you’re chasing for excitement chase, that excitement outside of your business. Business is boring. Yeah, it Greg, you mentioned the E-Myth. What’s one book that you feel ecommerce business owners should read? Today, your favorite book or something that you recommend the most?
Greg Howlett 28:21
I read a ton. But I stay away from a lot of the the I don’t know, what would I call those books are there they become the little the Business Book of the Year? Everybody isn’t tomorrow, you know, the E-Myth sort of stood the test of time, but I’m thinking good degrade and the Blue Ocean Strategy and all these kind of books? Yeah, there’s value in those but on the flip side of those books, and usually at the garage sale? Yeah. Let me tell you that I’m gonna put in a plug for the thing by far. If there’s one thing that I read religiously, that impacts my business more than anything else, it’s what you mentioned earlier. ECF eCommerceFuel, which is not a book it’s a it’s a, a membership in a community, with forums, active forums of people that actually know this business. They’re not playing around. These are seven to nine figure, business, business builder, ecommerce, Business Builders. That is what has been most valuable thing for me by far right in the in the in the past year or so. So I would probably say that more than any book, I hope I didn’t disappoint you, but
Joshua Chin 29:33
that’s not as good. That’s That’s so good. Andrew is gonna be so glad. That’s a great testimonial. And eCommerceFuel is one of those communities that I feel have been have grown to a really significant size but intentionally. It never got out of control and Andrew is very intentional. For, from, from what I can tell, and he’s built the community in a way that is not just self self sufficient, but also kind of I hate to use the word but synergistic. Like they’re the effect of having one plus one equals tree, but you have that across, like, How many members are in in ECF right now? 1000s Hundreds, I would say no more than a couple of no more than a couple of 1000 but I would say there are several 100 that are active and that was right. But yeah, it may not even be 1000 the impact of those couple of 100 active community members the like from from the from an outsider’s point of view if you like the community is way bigger and way more extensive than it actually is. Just because of how powerful it is.
Greg Howlett 30:58
Yeah, it really Yeah. Because there’s Yeah, people are participating they’re helping each other there’s no no politics allowed. No, you know, so this other stuff that people get distracted on and that makes a big difference. I know I can go there and read things that are going to help my business so anybody that’s not if you’re if you qualify to join that community. I would do it tomorrow. Absolutely. Anybody can absolutely do it.
Joshua Chin 31:31
And Greg, what’s the best way to connect with you for people who are interested learn more about what you do and Cobblestone Trade and actually partner with a few what should they do?
Greg Howlett 31:40
Yeah, they can go to Cobblestone Trade do a contact into a console or you know book a 15 minute slot with me right on Cobblestone Trade, and good necessity easiest. That’s as easy away as, as any Correct. Perfect. Yeah.
Joshua Chin 31:58
And links will be in the description. In the show notes. As usual, if you’re listening in from Spotify, or any of these platforms, you can go to Chronos.Agency\podcast to check out the show notes. Greg, thank you so much for being on our show.
Greg Howlett 32:14
I enjoyed it. Thanks so much for having me
Outro 32:20
Thanks for listening to the eCommerce Profits Podcast. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get notified of future episodes.
